In today's powerful episode, former Miss America Marilyn Van Derbur shares her inspirational story of healing and taking her power back after the ultimate betrayal. Sexually violated by her prominent father from age 5 to age 18, Marilyn was 53 years old before she was able to speak the words in public. Upon doing so, she opened the door for tens of thousands of sexual abuse survivors to also speak out, many for the first time. Whether you're healing from sexual abuse, know someone who is, or struggling with any other betrayal, Marilyn's story will help you have faith that the pain does end.

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1 (6s):
Welcome to spirited straight talk the ultimate podcast for anyone who is ready to live a life with intention and help from spirit. I am your host of shepherd, spiritual teacher, medium and author hoping you open up to the whole enchilada or like, we like to say the soul in Jalonda so you can truly make your soul rise. So let's go. This is Deb shepherd was spirited straight talk. I'm here with my partner in crime is Dana. And we're very excited today. I know I say that other times, and I really, with this situation where you have a guest on Maryland band Vancouver, and I've known her for quite a few years, she came to me for a reading.

1 (52s):
And after that she brought her daughter and some other people that needed healing, but she's truly an inspiration. She has written a book called miss America by day. And we're just going to highlight a few of the amazing things that this woman has done will be impressed. Yes, she, so she was miss America. She's she's was actually from Colorado. Of course, everybody knows we're here in Denver, Colorado. So she was crowned miss America in 1958 has been on so many different commercials and shows. And we'll share a little bit more about what you thought when you met her. When we bring her on here in just a minute, but she was an 18 T spokesperson.

1 (1m 37s):
She also hosted 10 episodes of candid camera. I don't know if you remember, I don't know if you to camera. And she was also the miss America pageant hostess for five years. And this was all after what she went through was brought to light and she's been through quite a journey and her book, miss America, by day, we read this about a year ago and it really changed our perspective on, on people who have been touched by sexual abuse. And so we wanted to bring her on today because she is an inspiration. She has not only written this book, but she's traveled the country speaking for five degrees.

1 (2m 21s):
She's traveled the world, speaking to groups about incest, incest and sexual abuse. And she has a unique approach when she does these groups. She's very hands-on with people who have experienced this, and she's a very wonderful person. So we'd like to welcome Ms. Marilyn Vanderbilt to the podcast, Ms. Marilyn van dipper. Atler I almost have tears bringing her on. And she came to see me originally after her parents had passed. And with that, I, I, but I remember first time meeting you, Maryland. And I remember you walking into my house and I didn't know who you, what you did, and thank you to myself.

1 (3m 1s):
You could be on dev commercials is more just your presence and how I felt around you and just with grace. And I think everything you've done in your work is always with grace and dignity. And I have some friends

2 (3m 13s):
You've been a blessing to my life. We've

1 (3m 15s):
Talked to you a few times and of course I read your book a few times and every time I get more out of it, but I, it's not really. We talk about your book, your story this last couple of years, we've had the hashtag me too movement. And I think it's really brought to light about what people have gone through through sexual abuse. And I know you are a pioneer, if they want to say about bringing this out into the open and shedding light onto it and your tragic situation, you've triumph through it. And you've helped other people know that. Not to have shame and not to be embarrassed and not to have to not be heard. So do you want to kind of share a little bit about sort of how you got into this journey?

2 (3m 56s):
Well, it is not a journey that I would have chosen. I believed if people knew that I was an incest survivor, that they would never look at me the same way. Again, I was a very successful motivational speaker. I was named the outstanding woman speaker in America, and I believed if people knew I would never be asked to give a speech again, the shame is so overwhelming, but my life shut down, but let let's start earlier than that. So my father started coming into my bedroom at night when I was five and it didn't stop until I was 18. I managed to do fairly well until our daughter, Jennifer turned five and it was her age that triggered the memories and the feelings.

2 (4m 46s):
And I went into physical paralysis and I was in physical paralysis for four to six hours a day. For three months, I was hospitalized for the better part three months and the doctors just couldn't figure it out. So I went to the Mayo clinic for a second opinion. They had absolutely no idea. They gave me every test imaginable. None of us had any idea what was happening. And one night I just have you ever had, just had just had that insight, just, just, Oh, I just, I, I, I know why Jennifer's turning five. And I was the one who figured it out and it didn't get easier. I went in and out of paralysis for, for many years, but still was able to function fairly well until Jennifer turned 13.

2 (5m 31s):
And when she turned 13, I was 45. And for the next 45 to 51, I could barely dress myself. There were days I couldn't answer my phone. I couldn't read my mail. I went into therapy for six years. It was, it was, I sobbed kind of sobbing that I hope no one ever, ever has to do. And the sobbing went on for so long. And my precious husband, I, I just know inside. He was saying, I can't listen to this one more time. It's just, but he never said that. He never said that he consoled me. He listened.

2 (6m 11s):
We tried to not have Jennifer learn too much about it, but it was an agonizing tortured recovery. As all of the feelings came up, when you bury feelings alive. And I was not. When my father came into my room, I was curled into the fetal position. He would literally pry me open. And I never said a word I tried to be as still as I could. And so all of the humiliation and all of the degradation and all of those anger, all of those feelings that you have, I just, I couldn't feel them.

2 (6m 53s):
I had to bury them. And when you bury feelings alive, they just sit there until something triggers them. And then they come up as if it's happening in real time. So I wasn't remembering my father humiliating my body. It was happening to me in real time. I wasn't, I said to Larry, I just need to find it one woman who has made it through this. I need to know that it's possible that this will end. We just need to find one woman. So when I was 50, I checked myself into a psychiatric ward, Cedar Sinai. There was as much shame for them as, as there was for me.

2 (7m 34s):
I couldn't find anyone who had lived through it. And finally, when I turned 51, so I really went down when I was 45 to 51, when I was 51, I began, I began to sob less. I began to function a little bit better, and I realized that I was going to get through it. I was going to go back to my speaking. I loved my motivational speaking, but I felt, I felt like a prisoner of war in Vietnam who had found his way out of prison. And he gets to the airport and he's, he's getting on the steps and he's going to go home to his family. And all of a sudden he realizes he has information to help the other prisoners out.

2 (8m 18s):
And he can't, he has to go back and I knew that I had to try to help others. And so I went to a camp center in Denver. It was so hard. I had to tell two men, I was an incest survivor. Oh. So hard for me. And they said, I said, I'd like, I'd like to start an adult survivor program. I will not be seen or heard at all. Ever my name can never come up. Never, never, never, but I want to help other people. And they said, come back with a quarter of a million dollars and we'll do it. So I came back with a quarter million dollars and they said, okay, we'll take 10 survivors a month and work with them.

2 (9m 5s):
Well, I was 53 when the program was just getting ready to go. They hired a sec psychiatrist out of Seattle. And he called and said, may I come over and see you and learn? I said, sure. And he said, I was going to fly down a survivor from Seattle to talk about this with, I think there were 12 psychiatrists and 12 survivors, something like that, but barrel. And you're the one who's been behind. All of that. Would you stand in front of 12? Psychiatrists entails 12 survivors. There might've been 15, whatever. And inside, I'm just, I, he said, you know, nobody, it's just for psychiatrists and survivors and inside, I'm just screaming. No, but I said, I'll call you in the morning.

2 (9m 49s):
I called two of my sisters, two of my nieces. And I said, how would you feel? It's just a very private, it's just a very private meeting with psychiatrists and survivors. How would you feel if I, if I did that and they all said fine. So it was to be at seven o'clock at night. And at noon, I get a call. A reporter is coming. I said,

1 (10m 8s):
Background here that you, you were a well-known name, including your father.

2 (10m 13s):
Oh my yes. Goodness.

1 (10m 15s):
Why you wanted to hide?

2 (10m 17s):
Well, I was a former miss America. This America is don't are not incest survivors. So yes. I knew if a reporter knew it was me, it would be on the front page. There was no question in my mind about that. I said, you, you think, you think a reporter is coming and they call back and they said, yes, wait, a reporter is coming. And, and this, this woman who was from the public relations department of the university of Colorado health sciences center, which is part of the camps, just got all of a sudden, I know all these people know. And they said, okay, this is what we have to do. We will go down. The Denver post knows a celebrity is speaking.

2 (11m 0s):
We will go down and give them your name. If they will agree to only print your words. And I said, are you, are you kidding me? This is not going to happen. Well, one of my best friends who worked there called, and she said, yes, this is, this is you have no choice on this because what's going to happen is if you don't show up, they're gonna figure it out anyway. And if you do show up there, the woman is going to run out and print, whatever she wants. So, so they went down and negotiated with the Denver post to only use my words. And I, I walked into the room and this woman stood up and said, I'm Carol crack from the Denver post. And I said, you're the last person I want to see tonight.

2 (11m 41s):
And I stood before and shared my story. And the next morning it was on the front page and many pages in full pages of my family. My father was very, very well and highly respected. I think, I think the thing that made such a difference for me, because it stayed on the front page. It just kept staying on the front page was that they never said Maryland alleges. They just, and they, they knew my father. I mean, they knew what an outstanding man. It might, the boy scout building was the Francis S Vander for boy scout building. They never said marijuana. They never questioned me. They never questioned whether I was telling the truth or not.

2 (12m 23s):
And I think that was critically important. So the second, so th th the second day was on the front page again. Oh, they said, you have to have press conference. And I said, never. And they said, they said, well, well, they'll call your three sisters and your mother. And I said, what time is the press conference? So it was on the front page again. So they said, they're calling your sister. So I called my sister Quinn in San Francisco. And I said, please, please, please, if you want to go public with your students, San Francisco, but don't do it in Denver. She went public was on the front page of the papers. The third day, I am holed up in my house, not knowing what to do. My life has just been completely demolished.

2 (13m 6s):
And I said to Larry and Jennifer, hi, I have to get out of here. So we went to the track, we're jogging around the track and a woman with her, two dogs came. We saw each other often, but this time she stopped me. And she said, thank you, Marilyn, for what you're doing. And I'm so grateful, your sister Gwen came forward this morning. I had not been happy about that. And I said, really why? And she said, because yesterday on our most popular radio talk show, people were calling in and saying, why should

1 (13m 37s):
We believe her? Yeah. Now

2 (13m 40s):
That your sister has come forward, they will have to believe you. I looked at her and I said, if people are not going to believe 53 year old me, then who is going to believe a child? Yeah. I went home. I called the newspapers. I called four television stations. And I said, let's get to work.

1 (14m 7s):
Nice. That kind of lit your fire. Didn't it?

2 (14m 11s):
Well, then it went to the cover of people magazine. And it was interesting because it didn't say Maryland. It said, miss America, I could never figure out why one. Oh,

1 (14m 26s):
Cause you, you didn't say

2 (14m 31s):
I was given miss America overcomes, not rape, not incest. Miss America overcomes shame there. Whoever wrote that copy gets it. It's about shame.

1 (14m 47s):
I'm sure it may have happened to them. And that's where you started really organizing and speaking across the country, in the world of what if I remember, you've done speaking about this, wrote your book, miss America by day, which reading it a couple of times, I'm always in a different place. When I read it inspires me to a whole new level and the courage that you've had to not only go through this and heal, but then be a messenger for others. It's pretty, pretty powerful. And then Dana got to hear you this last time with the book, when you were recognized for your book,

2 (15m 18s):
I've spoken, I've spoken in over 500 cities. So that means in 500 cities, I'm on the front page of their lifestyle. Sunday section, I just go from city to city, to city to educate, educate. But my most important goal is for the people who come and usually 600 to a thousand come and the most important of the night. And I lead up to it. I lead up to it. I, I, Y I know how to do this. And then I asked survivors to stand, and that is the most powerful moment to see in the first place when they know what I'm going to do, you can see that looking they're looking at, but you're not gonna know.

2 (15m 59s):
You're not gonna, you're not going to ask us to stand. You can see it in their eyes. You're not. Cause I give them time to think before I say, would you stand now please? No, no, no. You're not going to ask me to stand. And then I say, would you stand out please? And to see men and women, a few will stand immediately, very few, and then pretty soon another 20 and then another 50 and then another 50. And it's really my message. Look at, look at how many of us there are. There are just, Oh, we're one in one, three, one in four, one in five. Yeah.

1 (16m 33s):
We're not alone. I remember when you came to speak at one of my events and asking for us to stand, and I remember taking a deep breath before I did it. Because as you know, like you said, people look at you a certain way and being a spiritual teacher for all these years, I thought I have to have the courage to do this. And I've done it other times with, with human. You spoken, it is very powerful. It's life-changing but then you feel like you've been heard. I think also one of the things that's really impressive is after your events, this very big impression on me after your events, you have always stood and greeted everyone who wants to greet you.

2 (17m 12s):
Oh, that's the most, that's the best, the most healing part of the night. So they line up, it's almost always two to three hours. They line up, nobody cares how long it takes. Nobody is asking somebody to hurry up there. They're there they're patient. They want to, they want to speak the words. They want to tell me their story one by one. And it is the most healing. It is just the most healing part of the night. It's such a privilege for me to be able to do that.

1 (17m 43s):
And that's amazing. It was, it was really inspiring to watch if it was, it was a highlight of the event that we attended that I remember. So what would you say is the biggest piece of advice you would give someone who may be just starting their journey realization of this, something like this happening to them?

2 (18m 6s):
Well, speaking the words, that's the hardest part is you tell somebody and that's really, really scary when I had to tell them the young man that I have loved for nine years, I still I'm 83 in a cell chokes me up. But the day that I had to tell Larry, he had kissed me goodnight at the door when I was 15, 16, 17, 18. And now I'm going to tell him that I walked through the door to my father and he's going to have to know that I knew that he would, I knew that he would be so disgusted.

2 (18m 46s):
And so the ma he would just leave and never want to see me again. And I was sobbing sobbing. When I told him I was 24 and he just came over and put his arms around me and told me how much he loved me. He has been the most incredible source of love, but everybody just not respond that way. Right. We have to be. And while the newspapers were all honoring me as a woman of courage, it just, it was constantly in the paper. There was one columnist who took me on and he was really mean, Marilyn's just trying to get famous again. I mean, he was really nasty.

2 (19m 28s):
It was bad. And I responded to him and then he would come back at me. And what I realized now that at that time, it took me some time and space. What I realized was how grateful I was to him because survivors were coming out of the woodwork in Denver. I was triggering everybody because it was a story that wasn't going away. And it was all hearts and flowers and Maryland is a woman of courage and we'd honor her. And now here's this man taking me on, in a very nasty way. And I am coming back at him. And so survivors can see that everybody wasn't welcoming me at all. There were people who were saying, I don't believe you just really unkind things.

2 (20m 10s):
And it became a gift to me that he had done that because all of us, when we come forward, if it's a, especially if it's a family member that we had been raped by her violated by, there will be family members that don't want to hear that and will not take it well. So I'm grateful that he did write such nasty columns about me, but for survivors who are coming forward, you need to speak. The words writing is writing in a journal every day is so powerful. And so healing. I had a woman I've answered tens of thousands of emails.

2 (20m 50s):
And this woman had had, was still living with her father. She didn't have money to leave. She was just cornered. And how can I help her? Well, emailing constantly back and forth, but I had her journal every day. And at the same time, every day, no less than 10 minutes, but you can go. As long as you want, journaling is incredibly healing along the path of healing. This is going to be a pretty dramatic statement, but I believe it. You have to be willing to die to get better. And let me give you an example. When I started therapy at 45, a therapist said, you have to stop locking your bedroom door.

2 (21m 37s):
You have to open your bedroom door. You cannot lock it. You're just repatterning. I said, Oh, okay. So I went home that night and left the door open for about three seconds. And then I got up and closed. It locked. It couldn't even think of it the next night I did the same thing, but I wanted to, I just, I so wanted to get, well, I was willing to do anything to get well. And so the third night I left the door open. I turned on my side, away from the door. And I said to myself, because I thought I would die if I left the door. And I don't ask you to understand that. I just ask you to understand that that was my feeling. I turned away from the door and I said to myself, if I die, I die, but I don't want to live this way anymore.

2 (22m 21s):
And that's what you have to be willing to do. You have to be willing to walk right in to the trauma, right into the pain, right into the truth.

1 (22m 32s):
Wow. Just the power behind giving people the strength that it's not an easy process.

2 (22m 39s):
Oh, it's just, yeah. It's there were S there were just so many days when I thought, I just, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can do this another day, but, but now survivors know that it can end. I am that woman people are, I have, I have had this happen. I need a woman came up and stood in line. And she said, I need to see you and touch you and know that you're real. I knew exactly what she was saying. Did you honestly get through it? I need to look into, and I said to her, look into my eyes, feel the peace, feel the peace that I have that is available to you.

2 (23m 22s):
If you are willing to do the work of healing,

1 (23m 28s):
Do you find, I, you know, I know you're completely on the other side, but letting people know that when they do all this work, there can be times where there's another trigger that shows up.

2 (23m 39s):
Of course there could be triggers. Yeah. Well, yes. Last summer I was up at my daughter Jennifer's and I kind of curled up in a little ball on the sofa and I didn't have any energy and I didn't feel good. And Jennifer, Oh, this was so hard for her to say, I can't even tell you how hard this was for my daughter. Jennifer said, mom. Yes, mom. Yes. Jennifer. Is, is he triggering you? Is he was 10 her daughter, your granddaughter. Yes. Yes, she was.

2 (24m 19s):
Yes. She was. Now. Then Jennifer said, mom, you have taught us that once you make the connection, you can let it go. And that's true. Once I, yes, it was true. Is he was triggering me. 10, 10 was a really hard year for me. I can't distinguish six to seven or 13 to 14, but I do know 10. And as he was tan and it's once I understood that I could let it go and it's gone.

1 (24m 50s):
Well, it is. I know through my journey, when we were doing the Supreme court with Brett Kavanaugh, it was about what he was going through and how someone didn't believe the woman that came forward. And I remember for me, it was like flipping another bandaid off and it came all out again. I was able to tie the, you know, connect the dots, but then my body went through that hysterical, crying about not being heard and not believed, but then you're able to go back and find your tools again. So as we know it, we're talking about these triggers is letting people know that if something's happened to you at a certain age, when a child comes into your life at that age, it can trigger and open up those wounds that we buried.

1 (25m 34s):
We call it the night child and the day child that you had basically were able to manage it and, and be very successful because of that.

2 (25m 44s):
I do want to talk a little bit about the physical pain. I have fibromyalgia. I have it, I live with it. I, my only defense against my father was to tighten every muscle in my body as tight as I possibly could. Just tighten, tighten, tighten, tighten, tighten. And it has been a huge process for me and much body work for me to allow my body to relax and let go, because the tightness was so much a part of my life, that it became a part of my being.

2 (26m 29s):
And I had to do a lot of body work, Rolfing, massage self-defense therapy. I'm not sure that that helped out, but, but I finally at 83, I can touch my toes, which I couldn't do when I was 10. I am. I'm so healthy. And so at peace with my body, yes, I still have fibromyalgia. I can live with that, but the rest of it, I'm just blessed. Just blessed.

1 (26m 58s):
I read a lot about fibromyalgia and, and I've gone through some of that too, you know, different story, but a story of trauma as well. And so fibromyalgia and physical manifestations, I think of trauma last a lifetime, but managing it becomes easier with time. And I think that's a part of why I chose to do this triathlon that I'm working towards as well, is that physical exercise releases some of that emotion or some of that energy that you carry. And I think you do carry it for your entire life. It's just, how do you manage it? And what, what things do you take or what tools do you use to manage it as you go?

1 (27m 41s):
Would you agree?

2 (27m 42s):
The thing I live with, I, I know I say this. I don't think people really hear it. I can never remember falling asleep naturally. Wow. I'd never taken a nap. I can only go to sleep with medication. And I take medication every night. And I, I went to, I went to a therapist about 10 years ago, behavioral, whatever behavioral therapist. And I said, I want to come off my sleeping pills. And most people in Denver Nomi. And she said, okay, so you're 75 and you've been taking medication all your life. And what you're thinking of doing is barbaric. And I want you to go home and take your pills and live happily ever after you don't want to do this.

2 (28m 27s):
So do I, do I take a pill at night? I do. Am I ashamed of that?

1 (28m 32s):
Yeah. I have been on antidepressants for years and we used to be that a no, no, you don't talk about that. But when I'm off of them, I've tried. You don't want to be around me and I don't want to be around me. So there's nothing wrong with taking a medication that helps stabilize your body. And so that your body can do everything. It was put here to do.

2 (28m 49s):
I now go to bed and I go to sleep. And there, there are hundreds of nights that, that didn't happen. I was awake all night. So I'm really very, very grateful for the medication I take.

1 (29m 1s):
Well, if you want to know more about Maryland, she has this fantastic book, miss America by day, can they get it on Amazon? Where's it available?

2 (29m 9s):
They can get it on Amazon, but all of my talks are available and free on my website, this America by day.com. So if you want to hear it, everything on there is free. So if you want to hear one of my talks, just go to miss America by day.com.

1 (29m 25s):
And I will tell you, even if you have not had this type of abuse, there's probably someone in your life that has. And I know for me, really helped me with my daughter that was sexually assaulted by her father before he died and reading your book later in life. When this, when I knew about this, it really helped me understand more about the people in my life that had been affected by sexual abuse. So whether you've been touched by it or not someone has, it really helps you open your eyes to what goes through their mind and what happens to their body and some of the choices they make. And I know you're not speaking publicly. So that's a great way to find you is through Mrs. America by day.

2 (30m 5s):
May I say one more thing? So many people who stand in line say to me, what I went through, wasn't nearly as bad as what you went through. It once can hurt for a lifetime. So yes, I went through 13 years, but it, but once got hurt for a lifetime, we don't compare pain is pain. Trauma is trauma. And my trauma isn't worse than your trauma. We, we each have our own path and it's not healthy to judge one another and say, well, mine really wasn't as bad as yours. That's just, there's nothing helpful about,

1 (30m 39s):
It's not a competition. No, it's not. And it is it's, it is trauma for people in recognizing it. And as you've also spoken about with all these priests coming out about what's happened to these young men and coaches. So it's, it's touched a lot of different lives out there, and I'm glad it's coming forward so we can start healing. So I have one more question because there are a lot of people out there like you like your husband, who is a supporter for somebody who's, who's supporting another person who's been through this type of trauma or any trauma, but this type of trauma specifically, what would you say is the biggest thing a supporter could do for someone who has gone through trauma?

2 (31m 17s):
Well, one of the, what, what Larry went through, and again, for six years, when I say I was dysfunctional, I was, I was sobbing deep. It was, it was awful for six years and we didn't know what was going to change. That was the hardest part. He journaled, he began journaling. He journaled every day, he started running every morning. He became involved in civic activities. He had to find outlets for himself. Apart from my pain was so overwhelming. He had to find ways for him to function as well. Grace, that he gave me by listening and listening and listening. I think one of the, one of the reasons we're fortunate is we grew up together. So he would never have said to me, you need to try harder because he knew me.

2 (32m 0s):
He knew that I would jump off a bridge. If I thought that if I, if I am going to go off a cliff on skis to get better, give me the skis and let's go do that. He knew that I was really working as hard as I possibly could. There was no judgment of that, but he was patient beyond. He was kind and loving. And the good news is what we know now that we didn't know then is that the pain ends. If you do the work

1 (32m 29s):
And Larry is an earth angel, he really is all your family, but just,

2 (32m 36s):
I'm married into the most loving kind, you know, Janie and Susie, just the most loving kind family I'll make this short. Larry and I got married. We came home from our honeymoon and the phone rang the next morning at seven o'clock and it was Larry's mother. She, she says, good morning, my darling, how are you? And I said, I I'm fine. How are you? And the next morning she goes, how are you my darling? I said to Larry, you talk to each other every day. Is that what you do in this family? You talk to you call each other in the morning. Yes, we do. We talk to, okay. All right. Well, this is a new way of being,

1 (33m 9s):
Yeah, that is so cool. Your, your story is gonna, has inspired thousands and thousands of people. And we hope that this podcast where people that don't know you, which is surprising, we'll get some, some healing from this and know that there is a direction and there's hope for them.

2 (33m 26s):
I can't wait to hear about your triathlon. That just heroic what an incredible goal

1 (33m 34s):
You can come out and share with us.

2 (33m 37s):
I would love to do that. I would love to do that

1 (33m 41s):
50. It's been quite a journey I'm turning 50, and it's something that I've wanted to do for a while. And so I just got it stuck in my head that this was what I wanted to do for my 50th celebration is to, is to get healthier, focus on fitness and just do this.

2 (34m 0s):
Okay. I am so excited for you and Deb, Debbie, you know how many people I brought to you? Yes, I do. Yes. I keep showing up at your door because you have the you're so healing and so loving and so kind and so generous. You literally change lives with what you do, and you have blessed my life. And so many members of my family and a woman. I flew here from Pennsylvania,

1 (34m 29s):
That very professional relationship, but it turns into a friendship that we just know we're there without even hesitation. And I just love that about the way that we helping the planet, the best we can. And I'm hoping to see if Jennifer will come on at some point, too. Yeah. Well, we thank you so much.

2 (34m 44s):
Thank you. Love to you both. Thank you. So

1 (34m 46s):
Marilyn is not speaking in public where she used to be anymore, but everything she's ever said, all the inspiration is on miss America by day.com. And you'll hear all of her presentations and, and I think even parts of her book and it's all free. So if you're in that place where you want to understand more about sexual abuse and incest, where you've been through this, and it's time to heal, please go onto her website, miss America by day. And of course, people can always search for you, Deb shepherd.com from, I know lots of people have had sessions with you connecting with their loved ones who have done these things from the other side, so that they get healing. They can heal.

1 (35m 27s):
Yeah, that's actually why Marilyn came to see me. And it was, I won't let, I won't share because it's a personal reading and she'd always say whatever you want to say, Deb, but that's why she came to see about her mother and father, because they had passed and she wanted to talk to them and we instantly became connected and have for years over the years and just enjoy having her here with us. So you can find both Marilyn and Deb. And thank you for joining.

3 (35m 54s):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of spirited. Straight talk. If you enjoy the show, make sure you subscribe so that you get notified of new shows. We'd also love it. If you'd leave us a review and let's connect, visit Deb shepherd.com for more insights support workshops, and to book a session with dev plus enter to get a free reading with Deb. All you have to do is sign up for the email list and you'll automatically be entered. Just go to Deb shepherd.com. That's Deb S H E P P a R d.com.